moving O’Neill to LT would be a mistake, the Vikings haven’t proved they can develop an offensive lineman in a long time, either move Cleveland to LT where he played in college, keep Reiff (not likely) or get a guy in the draft.
Count me in as someone that would prefer to see O'Neil stay at RT. If only because this is a team that can't seem to help itself when it comes to forcing OL personnel to play at something other than their natural position. Draft a guard? Move him to tackle. Draft a tackle? Move him to guard, ideally to the opposite side of the line. Draft a swing tackle? Move him to linebacker.
On a more serious note, as Matthew rightly states, so much of what the Vikings do in free agency is dependent on how they handle Reiff. I'd hate to see them let him go, but keeping him all but ensures there will be no major signings in FA. Although I would contend that this won't be the worst thing in the world if they don't.
There should be a ton of bargain players available in FA with the salary cap being lowered. Supplementing the defense with quality 1-2 million a year players that are league average would be a nice boost for this defense, not to mention just acquiring a league average right guard.
Now, I firmly believe that acquiring that upgrade at RG won't result in significant growth for this offense without a philosophy change on the part of one Mike Zimmer, but you've got to get that RG first and I'd greatly prefer that we find him in FA rather than the draft.
Thanks for the thorough examination Sam. I reread Ezra Cleveland's profile in PFF's 2020 Draft Guide, which highlighted just how good he was in college at LT. Know it's college and not the pros, but with O'Neill performing so well at RT I hope they give Cleveland every opportunity to develop at LT and keep O'Neill where he is.
As you said, Sam, RT matters when you look at the number of great pass rushers on that side of the line. Cam Jordan? Kalil Mack? Those are a couple beasts. Our own Danielle Hunter is another prime example. With O'Neill on the right it ain't broke so don't fix it.
As far as Guard options you've outlined Vikngs own players and also a few free agent options in other articles. Nothing special outside of maybe Scherff (who to me is injured too much to give big money to) and Thuney, but Vikings can't afford "special" anyway. Go in with Jones at one spot, find one or two FAs to compete at the other and like you say in another article someone in the first 3 rounds of the draft and go from there.
I know it feels weird how Vikings bounce guys' positions, but there are OTs projected to be really good zone Guards like Vera-Tucker, Jalen Mayfield, James Hudson, and Royce Newman (they could also compete with Cleveland for an OT spot). PFF's Mike Renner now saying Wyatt Davis is on the line between second and third round. Kendrick Green is great zone fit in third or fourth. Unlikely that Vikings go O-line in the first so V-T is likely out, but at least there are possibilities.
I know I'm jumping the gun on the draft, but given the cap situation and the free agent options it looks like it needs to be solved through a combo platter. Main thing is just get some better options than Dozier and Samia. That doesn't seem too much to wish for.
Good analysis, Sam. I believe they should leave him at RT, but as you point out, what about LT? Listening to you and Matthew chat on the podcast this morning about King's Watson article and the possibilities made my head spin. Matthew's chess master mind and your in-depth knowledge made some very valid points, especially on the seven year age difference between Watson and Cousins. Listening to the PI podcasts has made me appreciate how the formula for running a successful NFL franchise is incredibly complex: Identifying draft/free agent talent; having quality coaching staff; making smart use of your pay cap dollars; the timing of player shelf life, contract expiration and decline in production vs making the run for the SB. Throw in the uncontrollable variables such as strength of schedule and unexpected visits by the injury grim reaper, things can go into the crapper quickly. Thank you to you and Matthew for providing thought provoking insight into the NFL... SKOL!!!!
Never thought they would’ve moved Cleveland in the first place, but if he takes progresses and takes the necessary next step, they’ve solidified the right side. Moving guys around never appealed to me as it just creates another hole on the line. Keep guys where they are, and spend on FA or develop draft pick behind Hill (if he re-signs and pending Reiff’s decision obviously).
Great read Sam :) I am in the keep O'Neill at RT. He's played more at RT in his career. He excelled at RT much quicker than anticipated. He will only get better, as his PFF grades demonstrate, with the time to develop more consistency. He faced some pretty tough competition and still managed well. I have no idea what the Vikings are going to do about Rieff. I don't think Cleveland is ready to assume the LT role. I'd prefer a free agent or a draft pick that has more discipline if there is one. I like Cleveland but I think the knocks on him coming into the draft have not been dealt with completely or the Vikings would have had him involved quicker... Sumia and Dozier were attrocious. I don't know and the Vikings are saying "why" with the hesitation on Cleveland but my guess is that the combination of his body type, tall and more slender not built like a refrigerator makes him susceptible to being bull rushed and over powered with leverage underneath. That can be coached. The other knock is more difficult to deal with and that is that he didn't finish plays or his opponents in college. Not saying he was terrible, but a number of scouting reports relayed the same when measuring what he could do in the NFL. So... though I do not want O'Neil moved, Cleveland's skill set puts Vikings in a tough place. I hope Cleveland can be coached into exhibiting more tenacity, because his raw athleticism is impressive, which would resolve some of this. He had to be doing something right when he was blocking for Brett Rypien considering the impressive amount of 300+ yd. games Rypien had.
Related to Rick Denison, I have not been impressed and was incredibly relieved he did not become the OC. When I say not impressed, I'm referring to the lack of progress in Dozier and Sumia in addition to poor pass blocking. He's been good in the past. He doesn't have much talent to work with. Hopefully, the line will improve this year.
Quick shoutout to Sam and Matthew on this subject: There are a number of people in the TC Orthopedics Performance Center that are of the opinion that Rick Dennison is a terrible o-line coach and a major contributor to the problems the O-line has had (both on Sunday's and developmentally) for the last two years. Might be a good subject for an article if you're able to do some digging for off-the-record comments.
Matthew, how often are contracts signed without a signing bonus? With the cap crunch it would make sense to try to avoid much new money being put on this year's cap, and my understanding is that any signing bonus goes at least partially on the current years salary cap per the standard [signing bonus money]/[years of contract] formula, even if the player is still under contract on the year that the extension was signed.
Seemingly if it were a standardish 4 year deal with an AAV of around maybe 11MM you could give O'Neill a 3MM signing bonus to triple his 2021 take home and that would "only" count 600K against the cap this year (if I did that right), but I wonder if the Vikes would be against even a small bump like that. Conversely, given that O'Neill has "only" had career earnings of 3.3MM, I wonder if he is pushing for a big signing bonus so that he can have the money now.
Is there a standard way that this goes that you've noticed? I'm guessing that it mainly comes down to how practical and patient the player is (Kirk and his minivan comes to mind), but I could see it being a factor...
moving O’Neill to LT would be a mistake, the Vikings haven’t proved they can develop an offensive lineman in a long time, either move Cleveland to LT where he played in college, keep Reiff (not likely) or get a guy in the draft.
Count me in as someone that would prefer to see O'Neil stay at RT. If only because this is a team that can't seem to help itself when it comes to forcing OL personnel to play at something other than their natural position. Draft a guard? Move him to tackle. Draft a tackle? Move him to guard, ideally to the opposite side of the line. Draft a swing tackle? Move him to linebacker.
On a more serious note, as Matthew rightly states, so much of what the Vikings do in free agency is dependent on how they handle Reiff. I'd hate to see them let him go, but keeping him all but ensures there will be no major signings in FA. Although I would contend that this won't be the worst thing in the world if they don't.
There should be a ton of bargain players available in FA with the salary cap being lowered. Supplementing the defense with quality 1-2 million a year players that are league average would be a nice boost for this defense, not to mention just acquiring a league average right guard.
Now, I firmly believe that acquiring that upgrade at RG won't result in significant growth for this offense without a philosophy change on the part of one Mike Zimmer, but you've got to get that RG first and I'd greatly prefer that we find him in FA rather than the draft.
Thanks for the thorough examination Sam. I reread Ezra Cleveland's profile in PFF's 2020 Draft Guide, which highlighted just how good he was in college at LT. Know it's college and not the pros, but with O'Neill performing so well at RT I hope they give Cleveland every opportunity to develop at LT and keep O'Neill where he is.
As you said, Sam, RT matters when you look at the number of great pass rushers on that side of the line. Cam Jordan? Kalil Mack? Those are a couple beasts. Our own Danielle Hunter is another prime example. With O'Neill on the right it ain't broke so don't fix it.
As far as Guard options you've outlined Vikngs own players and also a few free agent options in other articles. Nothing special outside of maybe Scherff (who to me is injured too much to give big money to) and Thuney, but Vikings can't afford "special" anyway. Go in with Jones at one spot, find one or two FAs to compete at the other and like you say in another article someone in the first 3 rounds of the draft and go from there.
I know it feels weird how Vikings bounce guys' positions, but there are OTs projected to be really good zone Guards like Vera-Tucker, Jalen Mayfield, James Hudson, and Royce Newman (they could also compete with Cleveland for an OT spot). PFF's Mike Renner now saying Wyatt Davis is on the line between second and third round. Kendrick Green is great zone fit in third or fourth. Unlikely that Vikings go O-line in the first so V-T is likely out, but at least there are possibilities.
I know I'm jumping the gun on the draft, but given the cap situation and the free agent options it looks like it needs to be solved through a combo platter. Main thing is just get some better options than Dozier and Samia. That doesn't seem too much to wish for.
Great article Sam lots of major decisions before the league year starts
Good analysis, Sam. I believe they should leave him at RT, but as you point out, what about LT? Listening to you and Matthew chat on the podcast this morning about King's Watson article and the possibilities made my head spin. Matthew's chess master mind and your in-depth knowledge made some very valid points, especially on the seven year age difference between Watson and Cousins. Listening to the PI podcasts has made me appreciate how the formula for running a successful NFL franchise is incredibly complex: Identifying draft/free agent talent; having quality coaching staff; making smart use of your pay cap dollars; the timing of player shelf life, contract expiration and decline in production vs making the run for the SB. Throw in the uncontrollable variables such as strength of schedule and unexpected visits by the injury grim reaper, things can go into the crapper quickly. Thank you to you and Matthew for providing thought provoking insight into the NFL... SKOL!!!!
Never thought they would’ve moved Cleveland in the first place, but if he takes progresses and takes the necessary next step, they’ve solidified the right side. Moving guys around never appealed to me as it just creates another hole on the line. Keep guys where they are, and spend on FA or develop draft pick behind Hill (if he re-signs and pending Reiff’s decision obviously).
Great read Sam :) I am in the keep O'Neill at RT. He's played more at RT in his career. He excelled at RT much quicker than anticipated. He will only get better, as his PFF grades demonstrate, with the time to develop more consistency. He faced some pretty tough competition and still managed well. I have no idea what the Vikings are going to do about Rieff. I don't think Cleveland is ready to assume the LT role. I'd prefer a free agent or a draft pick that has more discipline if there is one. I like Cleveland but I think the knocks on him coming into the draft have not been dealt with completely or the Vikings would have had him involved quicker... Sumia and Dozier were attrocious. I don't know and the Vikings are saying "why" with the hesitation on Cleveland but my guess is that the combination of his body type, tall and more slender not built like a refrigerator makes him susceptible to being bull rushed and over powered with leverage underneath. That can be coached. The other knock is more difficult to deal with and that is that he didn't finish plays or his opponents in college. Not saying he was terrible, but a number of scouting reports relayed the same when measuring what he could do in the NFL. So... though I do not want O'Neil moved, Cleveland's skill set puts Vikings in a tough place. I hope Cleveland can be coached into exhibiting more tenacity, because his raw athleticism is impressive, which would resolve some of this. He had to be doing something right when he was blocking for Brett Rypien considering the impressive amount of 300+ yd. games Rypien had.
Related to Rick Denison, I have not been impressed and was incredibly relieved he did not become the OC. When I say not impressed, I'm referring to the lack of progress in Dozier and Sumia in addition to poor pass blocking. He's been good in the past. He doesn't have much talent to work with. Hopefully, the line will improve this year.
Again, welcome aboard and SKOL Vikings!!
Quick shoutout to Sam and Matthew on this subject: There are a number of people in the TC Orthopedics Performance Center that are of the opinion that Rick Dennison is a terrible o-line coach and a major contributor to the problems the O-line has had (both on Sunday's and developmentally) for the last two years. Might be a good subject for an article if you're able to do some digging for off-the-record comments.
Matthew, how often are contracts signed without a signing bonus? With the cap crunch it would make sense to try to avoid much new money being put on this year's cap, and my understanding is that any signing bonus goes at least partially on the current years salary cap per the standard [signing bonus money]/[years of contract] formula, even if the player is still under contract on the year that the extension was signed.
Seemingly if it were a standardish 4 year deal with an AAV of around maybe 11MM you could give O'Neill a 3MM signing bonus to triple his 2021 take home and that would "only" count 600K against the cap this year (if I did that right), but I wonder if the Vikes would be against even a small bump like that. Conversely, given that O'Neill has "only" had career earnings of 3.3MM, I wonder if he is pushing for a big signing bonus so that he can have the money now.
Is there a standard way that this goes that you've noticed? I'm guessing that it mainly comes down to how practical and patient the player is (Kirk and his minivan comes to mind), but I could see it being a factor...